Not Quite Otome

[alias_sqbr]

I know I'm not the only one who keeps wanting to talk about/rec games here but they're not quite otome, even though they feel otome-ish in their appeal.

So this is the post for discussing our favourite not-quite-otome! There's no objective definition, any game (or almost-game) counts if it feels otome-ish to you. I imagine we'll all draw the lines differently, but that's fun to compare in and of itself.

I'll put my own examples in a comment, and would love to hear about yours!

Comments

[alias_sqbr]

So, my favourite not-quite-otome! ...oops there's a lot >.> And this is after I removed bunch of games which didn't 'feel otome-ish enough' for reasons I can't articulate. If you check out my games recs there's a bunch of games I love I didn't include but would still rec.

m/m dating sim:

Dream Daddy Play a dad romancing other dads! The writers tend to undermine the romance with humour and unromantic character moments, but it's still overall pretty fun and I enjoyed it the most of the (very few) m/m games I've played.

Visual novels with female main characters but no m/f romance:

I guess technically most of these are otome, since they're aimed at women, but it's not what people usually mean.

Butterfly Soup a justly beloved f/nb visual novel about a group of Asian American teenage girls who join a baseball team. Not a dating sim, since your choices don't affect the plot but are just there for humour and immersion, but it has a really cute romance arc.

one night, hot springs Lovely visual novel about a trans woman going to a hot springs with friends.

Mermaid Splash! Passion Festival A free f/f dating/life sim about a mermaid, Cici, deciding what hobby to present at an upcoming festival. I overall enjoyed this, though some things bugged me. The art is SUPER cute, especially the character designs, with more body type diversity than you usually see and a very cute trans woman love interest.

Roleplaying games with romance:

I'm a huge fan of the Dragon Age series of roleplaying games. They're vaguely Tolkein-esque fantasy with great narratives, lots of player choice, and the most fleshed out interactive romances outside of visual novels I've ever seen. You can play as a man or woman (and often also have a choice about being an elf/mage etc), and there's a mixture of male and female love interests, who are a mix of straight, bi, and sometimes gay. I personally enjoy the combat but if you buy the games on PC (they're all pretty cheap and low-requirements these days) there's mods/cheats to remove it.

Each game has a new main character and story, with some narrative threads and side characters continuing in later games. So in some ways it's best to start with the first game Dragon Age: Origins, but the graphics/gameplay is pretty dated, and the newest game Dragon Age: Inquisition also tells a perfectly good story if you start from there. And if you want an extra large helping of angst and morally grey bisexuals, and don't mind repeated maps, then play Dragon Age 2 ;)

I also really enjoyed the Mass Effect trilogy, which is kind of like Dragon Age but less gay and in space, and telling one single story. A new remastered version just came out so there's less of an issue with the games being dated. There's also Mass Effect: Andromeda, which is set after the trilogy and generally not as well liked, but it's still fun.

Farming sims with romance:

Stardew Valley You can play as a man or a woman, and the male and female love interests are all bi. The narrative is kind of thin but very cute and engaging.

Verdant Skies Slightly janky but has a fun scifi setting and is very diverse. The player character has no stated gender, while the love interests are male, female and non-binary, and some are aroace, polyamorous, or trans.

[scytale]

And if you want an extra large helping of angst and morally grey bisexuals, and don't mind repeated maps, then play Dragon Age 2 ;)

This is a very good description of DA2!

Of all the games, I think DA2 feels the most otome to me. I think it's the combination of how defined Hawke is as their own person, the importance of their relationships to the plot and the angst, and the way the relationships progress over time (since the game takes place over ten years). And also how the story feels so fixed, in a three-act tragedy way (which is not an RPG staple!)

I thought it did the best at showing how the relationships changed over time and changed the characters (as well as involved them navigating different political opinions). Romancing Anders in particular is certainly an experience.

Which funnily enough, is all things I remember people complaining about with regards to the game.

I also really enjoyed the Mass Effect trilogy, which is kind of like Dragon Age but less gay

I sighed at this, because this is such a correct description, and also suddenly rediscovered my bitterness over not being able to romance Ashley as a woman. :P

[alias_sqbr]

Of all the games, I think DA2 feels the most otome to me

I hadn't thought about it that way, but you're right.

My bitterness about people I can't romance in Mass Effect as the same gender is manifold and deep.

[caramarie]

Magical Diary: Wolf Hall was one I was thinking about in this regard ... it has a male MC but it still feels female-oriented (I think particularly given it being a sequel).

[alias_sqbr]

Ooh, yes, that's a good example!

[scytale]

Choice of Games has a ton of not-actually-otome with romance as a selling point!

My favorite is Fallen Hero: Rebirth, in which you play a superhero turned supervillain and there is a lot of identity kink. The writing is excellent and there's a lot of opportunity for playing with gender (as the game says, "Juggle two bodies and three identities, play as male, female or genderqueer"). The amoral mercenary doctor is not the most popular of the love interests, but I fell hard into shipping.

Hades is not really a romance game, but there are romance options.

Fire Emblem is very much not otome, but I've definitely had feelings of "But I must manage this character's life by picking them the perfect partner!!" playing it.

I've played Doki-Doki Literature Club before with mixed feelings, and wrote it up here (CN for mentions of character death, depression, and suicide).

I'm trying to branch out into non-otome VNs, on my backlog is:

- Sweet Pool - BL omegaverse-ish body horror, as I understand it?
- Hashihime of the Old Town - Taisho Era BL that is giving me 20th century literature vibes
- Saya no Uta - seems like it will be male gazey m/f horror that I fully expect to be squicked out by
- Detention - deeply allegorical horror. ;____; Indefinitely delayed until I can find someone to sit next to me because I am a wimp and I know this will not go well.
- Raging Loop - No idea what it is about, but peer pressure says I should play it so I guess I should?

[caramarie]

Oh, I've enjoyed a lot of the Choice Of games! My faves have probably been:
- Tally Ho, which has my fav romance in any of these games ... love a rogue; I enjoyed the sequel too, though not as much
- The Heart of the House – is spooky! I found it less relatable than some of the others, but I enjoyed it a lot
- Choice of the Deathless – excellent rival ship; also the only game I know that has a mechanic for paying off your student loan.

I enjoyed Doki-Doki Literature Club reasonably well, although I always find it kind of weird playing games that are drawing more off male-oriented dating games, when that's not the type I'm familiar with. Like the commentary part doesn't quite hit.

[scytale]

Oh, thank you! I will try to check those out; they have so many games that it's hard to sort through them, so recs are nice! Paying off student loans. :D And Tally Ho sounds interesting!

The other one I remember very vaguely is Mysteries of Baroque, which is...Gothic Weird City stuff? I remember liking the roleplay potential there; I can't remember the romances, but there might have been one that I liked?

For the commentary in Doki-Doki, it ended up working for me based off knowledge of general tropes...but it ended up falling short of where I wanted to see the commentary go, though, and the meta really didn't really work with the horror for me. I prefer deep immersion, I guess!

I did end up having a pretty clear idea of my protagonist in my head through the first part of the game, which was interesting, because of course the second part was about tearing that down.

[alias_sqbr]

I really have to try Fallen Hero: Rebirth, I keep hearing good things. Same with Hades.

And yeah your description of Doki Doki LIterature Club matches what I've heard from other people. I find most 'subversions' of dating sims end up less interesting and engaging than regular dating sims.

Your to-play list is full of games I've looked at and gone "looks interesting but I am probably too much of a sook to actually play it", so if you do play them I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.

[scytale]

What other subversions of dating sims have you played?

The only other one that comes to mind for me is Hatoful Boyfriend, which I liked the real ending of. I did like some of the routes in that, but they were definitely very light, and I did like the protagonist by the time I got to the real ending. But it also doesn't feel as much of a subversion as DDLC did.

I have Sweet Pool and Hashihime from a sale, so those are very likely to get played! Saya no Uta and Detention I'm going to wait until I can play them immediately after buying them... so that I can take advantage of Steam's return policy. >_>

I also forgot, I have The House of Fata Morgana, but it looks so long (and is another one where I have no idea what it's about).

[alias_sqbr]

Oh, I keep hearing The House of Fata Morgana is good! But it looks heavy and I get the impression it has some non-binary adjacent stuff which isn't handled terribly but still might hit buttons for me. So I'd be very curious to hear what you think, if you play it!

I've encountered a lot of tiny indie VNs which attempt to subvert otome/dating sim tropes. Mostly they're just boring or frustrating, they avoid or subvert the problematic tropes but don't replace those tropes with anything very entertaining and the subversion isn't interesting enough to make up for it. Cyanide Tea have made two examples I found especially obnoxious:

*Ristorante Amore *https://cyanidetea.itch.io/risamo starts out as a shallow, tropey otome...and then suddenly goes HA AS IF and makes one of the male characters the new main character, explicitly describing the original female protagonist as boring and her story as shallow wish fulfilment. Except the male character's romances aren't that much better, especially when the game is being so smug about being Better Than Otome.

Taarradhin https://cyanidetea.itch.io/taarradhin Protagonist is a dark skinned woman in a vaguely North African society whose love interests are two lighter brown slaves, who are drawn in typical Sexy Slave outfits etc. Except SURPRISE slavery is BAD and the dark skinned African bisexual woman must be punished for her selfish, slutty, slave owning ways. HOORAY.

Meanwhile afaict Nachitgal https://cyanidetea.itch.io/nachtigal is a subversion of games like Diabolik Lovers, with the moral that MURDEROUS VAMPIRES WOULD MAKE BAD BOYFRIENDS ACTUALLY, since as we all know that's something no woman into vampire romances will have heard before. But I didn't play enough to be able to judge this game as much as the others.

Their most recent otome seems to be a more sincere attempt to just...make a good otome game without the tropes they dislike, but I haven't managed to bring myself to play it.